Reply to Saira Nargis’s points by Illias Suttar
(non-ahmadi reply to ahmadi)
1)
Thank you for opening this web-site. I am thankful to
you for opening only one point of St. Paul now. This will help us to
concentrate on one point, thereby giving it more time.
(2)
MIRZA TAHIR
ADMITS MISTAKE (I
write the following on oath).
I don’t remember the exact
year, may be 1981 – 1982. I had not yet written my article, but had merely
prepared the question that Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Saheb says that (1) Jesus was
worshipped by Christians after the death of Jesus (2) Jesus lived for 120 years,
therefore died in 120 A.D. (3) St. Paul made the Christians worship Jesus (4)
Paul died in 65 A.D. The Question was that according to the four points above
Jesus was worshipped by Christians 55 years before Jesus died.
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Janab Mirza Tahir was attending
a gathering of about 30 Ahmadis / Qadianis. At that time he was not the Khalifa.
The Ahmadis / Qadianis asked me to present my question to Mirza Tahir Saheb.
Mirza Tahir’s reply to my question was, in short, as
follows:-
“You
(Illias) are right. Hazrat Isa (ph) was worshipped during his lifetime.
But it is a miracle of the Holy Quran that the verse mentions ‘as long as I
remained among them’. “
I
became very happy by his reply. Because (1) the purpose of my question
was not to prove (2) the Holy Quran right or wrong but (3)
my purpose was to ascertain whether Mirza Ghulam Ahmed
Saheb was right or wrong.
Mirza Tahir Saheb admitted by
implication that Mirza Ghulam Ahmed was wrong by agreeing that Jesus was
worshipped by Christians while he was alive.
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On
that particular night I decided to make public
my question regarding St. Paul because the answer of Mirza Tahir Saheb
convinced me that my question was right.
BUT
(3)
But I was 100% sure that my article was a gift from
Allah. At that time my article consisted of one page only. I sent it to some
newspapers I wrote a letter to them that the entire credit goes to Allah, and
therefore I do not want my name to be printed. I did not mention my name even in
the letter after “yours truly”.
BUT
(4)
But no newspaper
printed. Then I personally visited office of the newspaper “JASARAT” and met
Salah-ud-din Bhai, the editor who made me happy by printing it. I also met Mr.
Yaqoob Bawa of Khatm-e-Nubuwwat, Karachi
who in 1983 printed the article in the weekly magazine.
(5)
Mirza Saheb was a
claimant to Divine Office and Bahaullah was also a claimant to Divine Office
at the same time.
Why Mirza Saheb did not offer Mubahila to
Bahaullah? Why Mirza Saheb did not give forceful arguments to prove Bahaullah
wrong? How did he tolerate a Parallel Divine Government? Does it not prove that
both were not divinely appointed, but rather divinely disappointed?
(6) I
appreciate your good English but Sister Saira Nargis, good English is not a substitute for hard facts and hard truths.
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(7)
I
appreciate your vast information, but can you by any stretch of imagination
prove that St. Paul died
after 120 A.D. ? Mirza Saheb in his book “JESUS IN INDIA” says that Jesus died
when 120 years old. This means that Jesus died in 120 A.D.
(8) According to my article
St. Paul died in 65 A.D. i.e 55 years
before the death of Jesus in 120 A.D. With all your information about St. Paul,
can you erase all the 55 years of difference?
(9) “Good News
Bible” (1977) gives the
following information on page 358:-
THE TIME OF THE NEW
TESTAMENT
Birth of Jesus c. 6 B.C.
Death and resurrection of Jesus C.
A.D. 30
Conversion of Paul C. A.D. 37
Ministry of Paul C. A.D. 41 – C.
A.D. 65
Final imprisonment of Paul C. A.D.
65
The present era was calculated to
begin with the birth of Jesus Christ, that is, in A.D.1
(A.D. standing for Anno Domini ‘in the
year of the Lord’). However, the original calculation was later found to be
wrong by a few years, so that in fact the birth of Christ took place about six
years “before Christ”.
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(10)
So my intellectual,
well read sister Saira Nargis, the main point is: you can prove
Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Saheb RIGHT only by killing
St. Paul after the death of Jesus in Srinagar
(Kashmir). And according to Mirza Ghulam Ahmed the death of Jesus in Kashmir
took place in 120 A.D. or 114 A.D. if the error of six years as shown
above in no.9 is taken into account.
If St. Paul dies one year or even
one day before Jesus, then also Mirza Saheb remains wrong. Because it would mean
that the seeds of association (shirk) were sown in the life time of Jesus, and
not after the death of Jesus as claimed by Mirza Ghulam Ahmed.
FUNNY
(11)
Mirza Saheb writes in
“ANJAM-E-ATHAM” on page 321 that St. Paul after the death of Jesus mixed with
the “HAWARIS” and because of St. Paul’s “KIDNAPPING”
(Aghwa in Urdu) one group of Christians became worshippers of the dead (Murda
Parast in Urdu).
How can St. Paul who died before Jesus mix with
“HAWARIS” after the death of Jesus? Is this not funny?
What Mirza Ghulam Ahmed wants to imply by using
the word “KIDNAPPING” (Aghwa in Urdu)? Please clarify.
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EVEN THOUGH IMPOSSIBLE
(12)
So can you make
St. Paul die after 114 A.D.?
Even if you could prove the impossible death of
St. Paul after 114 A.D., even then Mirza Saheb will be wrong because Mirza Saheb
says on page 87 of “Kashti-e-Nuh” as
follows:-
“When
Jesus went towards Kashmir, Paul on the basis of a false dream entered the fold
of the Hawaris and began from himself the issue of Trinity.”
Similarly Mirza Ghulam Ahmed says on page 61 of
“Chashma-e-Masihi” as follows:-
“He
planted the bad plant of Trinity in Damascus. And this Pauline Trinity started
from Damascus. Hadis of Hazrat Mohammed (S.A.W.) points to this….…”
Similarly Mirza Ghulam Ahmed says on page 61 of
“Chashma-e-Masihi” as follows:-
“One King had him (Paul)
executed. And in this way his life ended.”
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Book “THE 100” Page—62
(13)
“Paul was not as
successful in preaching to the Jews as some early Christians”
------------------- This means that Paul was a little successful in preaching
to the Jews. This point is conclusive to prove that Mirza Ghulam Ahmed was wrong
because the condition of seed sowing is fulfilled.
(14)
Before my article was published in
1983, no
Ahmadi / Qadiani including Mirza Ghulam Ahmed, his promised son Mirza
Bashir-ud-din Mahmood Ahmed, his grandson Mirza Tahir Ahmed, etc. etc. had ever
insisted upon Bani Israel concept to establish the deterioration of the
Christian faith. Even then Allah is helping me to prove false the new Qadiani
argument.
(15)
“Good News
Bible” (1977) COLOSSIANS
4/10,11:-
“10Aristarchus,
who is in prison with me, sends you greetings, and so does Mark, the cousin of
Barnabas. (You have already received instructions to welcome Mark if the comes
your way.) 11Joshua, also called Justus, sends greetings too. These
three are the only Jewish converts
who work with me for the Kingdom of God, and they have been a great help
to me.”
Is not the condition of seed sowing of “shirk”
fulfilled here?
(16)
“Good News
Bible” (1977) Acts 14/1:-
“Paul
and Barnabas went to the synagogue and spoke in such a way that a
great number of Jews and Gentiles became
believers.”
Is not the condition of seed
sowing of “shirk” fulfilled here?
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(17)
“Good News
Bible” (1977) Acts
17/10,11,12:-
“10As
soon as night came, the believers sent Paul and Silas to Berea. When they
arrived, they went to the synagogue. 11The people there were more
open-minded than the people in Thessalonica. They listened to the message with
great eagerness, and every day they studied the Scriptures to see if what Paul
said was really true. 12Many of them believed; and many Greek
women of high social standing and many Greek men
ALSO believed.”
Is not the condition of seed
sowing of “shirk” fulfilled here?
(18)
Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmed and Bible agree that
Paul converted Jews also.
So the Bible is
QUITE CLEAR that Paul did convert some Jews though he was more
successful among the Gentiles.
No let us see what Mirza Saheb says in this
regard on page-321 of volume-11 of “Roohani Khazain” (ANJAM-E-ATHAM):-
(1)
The seeds of
association were sown.
(2)
In the religion of
Christianity (Essai).
(3)
During the time of the
Hawaris.
(4)
After the death of
Jesus.
(5)
The seeds of
association were sown by one mischievous Jew Paul.
(6)
Who (Paul) came into
the midst of the Hawaris.
(7)
And because of Paul’s KIDNAPPING
one sect became worshippers of the dead (Murda Parast).
(8)
The gist (mufhoom) of
the verse is that among the Christians (Essaiyoun) corruption in the faith (fasad)
and deterioration of the faith (beegar) started only after the death of
Jesus.
(9)
Very
Important:- On
page-321 Mirza Saheb says: “Paul in fused
into Christianity much corruption (fasad).”
On page-322 Mirza Saheb says: “The gist
of verse is that corruption in the faith in Christianity started after the death
of Jesus.”
How can Paul who died in 65 A.D.
infuse corruption in faith of Christianity after the death of Jesus in 120
A.D.
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SPIRITUAL POINT NO.1
Volume – 11 of “Roohani Khazain” pages 320–321
(19) Mirza Ghulam Ahmed has written
perhaps 83 books, now collected in 23 volumes known as “Roohani
Khazain”. Volume-11 has 347 pages, so the 23
volumes have around 8000 pages.
Now just consider the two pages
320 and 321 of volume-11. On page
320 the Mubahila from Mirza Saheb is being offered. On page 321 Mirza Saheb
discusses “Falamma Tawaffeteni” verse of Sura Maida.
MY CHALLENGING QUESTION
of Pakistani rupees ten million is based on this very page 321 discussion of
“Falamma Tawaffeteni”. The Mubahila agreement signed by Ahmadi Murabbi Muhammad
Usman and Illias Suttar and six witnesses clearly mentions:-
“Subject of meeting:
reward bearing question of Illias Suttar, Mr. Muhammad Usman offered
Mubahila challenge on behalf of Mirza Tahir, Fourth Khalifa of Ahmadis. Mr.
Usman gave a booklet on Mubahila dated 10-06-1988 issued by Mirza Tahir, the
Khalifa.”
(20)
The book “Anjam-e-Atham” was
written in 1897 and 102 years later in 1999 the Mubahila was made on this very
challenging point of “Falamma Tawaffeteni”
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When you open the 11th
volume, page–320 is on your right and page 321 is on the left. Both pages are
visible at the same time.
When you close the book the
Mubahila page–320 and the Mubahila point page–321 embrace each other.
Can you see the Divine Plan starting in 1897
and manifesting in 1999?
SPIRITUAL POINT NO.2
3rd June and 10th June
(21)
Many newspapers carried
the news of Mubahila, and after the Mubahila was over, again many newspapers
covered my Press Conference of
05-07-2000 at the Karachi Press Club.
BUT THERE WERE TWO
(22)
But there were two persons in the
whole world who wrote vigorously their own articles on the Mubahila ever since
the Mubahila started and even after the Mubahila was over. And their articles
were printed. These two persons were Mr. Muhammad Hanif Motiwala and Dr.
Khurshid Ahmed Sheikh.
In the Mubahila agreement (both in Urdu and
English) there were only two dates given. One date was 3rd June, the
date of the agreement. The second date was 10th June, the date of the
pamphlet of Mubahila issued by Mirza Tahir, the Khalifa.
(23)
The important point is that the
only two writers of articles on Mubahila, namely Mr. Muhammad Hanif Motiwala was
born on 3rd June, and Dr. Khurshid Ahmed Sheikh was born on 10th
June.
(24)
Does it convey any
message to you?
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EXACT CENTURY
(25)
The page 321 is in the
book “ANJAM-E-ATHAM” which carries the date of
22-01-1897. Hazrat Mufti Bashir Ahmed Shah
Jamali said that “many Ulemas have written on Qadianiat but your article is from
Allah”. He said this in Qurtaba Mosque. Only three days before I met him for the
first time and gave him my article. After coming home from the mosque I saw the
article and discovered the date 22-01-1897 in “Anjam-e-Atham”. And it struck to
me that the date on this earth was still 22-01-1997 EXACT CENTURY, when the
Mufti said “your article is from Allah”.
(26)
ACTUAL CONTROVERSY:
MIRZA NOT JESUS
You have said that the actual controversy is about
the demise of Jesus. You have misunderstood me. In my whole article I have
nowhere tried to prove the life and death issue of Jesus.
I have merely discussed the fact that Mirza Saheb
is not from Allah. And I have given the challenge of ten million rupees NOT to
prove or cancel the life of Jesus in the sky, but to prove the falsehood of
Mirza Saheb’s Divine Claim Only.
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You have allowed everybody
to comment on your article. I am also interested to express my views on this
subject. Thank you.
I have
thoroughly studied the article of brother Illias Suttar under the title, " Can
Ahmadis/Qadianis Answer?" IT IS NOT ONLY A WONDERFUL ARTICLE BUT ALSO A "MIRACLE
OF KHATME NABUWWAT". This is why in
the Mubahila agreement of 3rd June, 1999 between Mirza Tahir Ahmed and Illias
Suttar, it was clearly mentioned :
" Illias Suttar will have the Mubahila
Agreement printed AND WILL STAPLE IT TO HIS ARTICLE OR ADD IT TO THE ARTICLE IN
FUTURE EDITIONS." This shows how much this article has disturbed the peaceful
sleep of Qadianis. Instead of a logical reply, they wanted to prove the
article wrong with the help of Mubahila.
Mr. Illias
Suttar has proved a perfect and UNSOLVABLE CONTRADICTION from the books of Mirza
Sahab.
1.
Anjam-e-Atham.
2. Masih in India.
3. Chashma-e-Masih.
4. Kashti-e-Noah.,
His article carries a challenge of Rs.
10,000,000/= (one crore Pakistani ), and Illias Suttar has announced that he
will ACCEPT THE JUDGEMENT OF EVEN AN AHMADI / QADIANI JUDGE, HE WILL HAVE NO
APPEAL AGAINST THIS JUDGEMENT, AND THE PROCEEDINGS CAN TAKE PLACE IN HIS ABSENCE
IN THE SUPREME COURT OF ANY COUNTRY WHICH THE AHMADIS / QADIANIS WILL CHOOSE.
Mirza Sahab accepts "There is contradictions in the writing of liars" ( Zamima
Baraheene Ahmadia, part fifth, page 112). Mr. Illias Suttar has proved Mirza
Sahab a liar in his claim of Masih, Mehdi and prophet.
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You have commented after
giving summary of six points that it is personal view and wrong interpretation
of Mr. Illias Suttar. I think your comment is based on blind faith, but your
conscience rejects your blind faith, and you are now in open discussion forum.
You have stated six points
of Illias Suttar in the beginning of your reply. I now give my explanation
regarding six points of Mr. Illias Suttar, which are as follows:
( Explanation of point no.
1) Mirza Sahab says, " He died at the age of 120 in Srinagar, Kashmir." ( Jesus
in India, page 19 ).
Please note that present
calendar starts from the birth of Isa (a.s.). So according to statement of Mirza
Sahab, Hazrat Isa (a.s.) died in 120 A.D. Now, Saira Nargis must accept that in
book "Jesus in India" Mirza Sahab proved that Hazrat Isa died in 120 A.D.
(Explanation of point no.
2) Mirza Saheb says "verse tells that the christians were on the right path till
the life of Jesus ( Anjam-e-Atham, page 321). According to present calendar
Masih was alive upto 120 A.D. Now, Saira Nargis must accept:- In his book "Anjam-e-Atham",
Mirza Sahab has clearly stated that the seeds of Trinity were not sown until 120
A.D.
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(Explanation of point no.
3) Mirza Saheb Says "that man (Paul) infused too much corruption of faith in
Christian religion. Finally one group of Christians remained in faith of Unity
of God, and another un-holy group through Paul's
KIDNAPPING became ' worshipper of dead'." (Anjam-e-Atham, page
321-322)
Mirza Saheb says "but Paul made him (Jesus)
God" (Chashma-e-Masihi, page 375).
It is clear from above
references that Paul, who made Hazrat Masih God, won a countable group of
converts from Christian religion and made them worshippers of Trinity.
Now, Saira Nargis must accept that in the book "Anjam-e-Atham", Mirza Saheb has
clearly said that St. Paul made Hazrat Essa God.
(Explanation of point No.
4) Mirza Saheb says "thus at this place it comes to knowledge a fine point about
the corruption in faith in Christianity, and this is the fact that the seeds of
Trinity were sown in Christian religion in the period of Hawaris (Apostles)." (Anjam-e-Atham,
page 321).
Please note that not a
single Apostle was alive in 120 A.D. In fact all the Apostles died much before
120 A.D.
Saira Nargis in her reply
dated: 18-05-2001 to Mr. Illias Suttar's challenge has herself agreed that St.
Paul died years before 120 A.D.
Mirza Saheb's claim in paragraph no.2 above
"that Christians were on the right path till the life of Jesus (i.e. 120 A.D.)
becomes absolutely wrong and contradictory.
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Please read the article of
Saira Nargis. She tells us that "It (Concept of Trinity) grew as a plant amongst
the Israelite Christians at a quite later stage and years after the demise of
Paul...... The real Christians remained on the right path...... till the death
of Jesus i.e. 120 or 125 A.D." ...............We are
grateful to Saira Nargis that IN THIS STATEMENT she has at least accepted that
St. Paul died before 120 or 125 A.D.
However, Saira Nargis must honestly accept that
Paul died in 64 or 65 A.D. whereas Jesus according to Mirza Saheb died in 120
A.D. Therefore, Paul died at least 55 years before Jesus.
(Explanation of point No.
5) Mirza Saheb says "thus all the deterioration were created in the religion of
Christianity by Paul....... Paul made him God." (Chashma-e-Masihi, page 375).
Please for further reference read our point no.4. Now Saira Nargis must accept
that since Paul must have given the doctrine of Trinity during his life time (65
A.D.), this means that Jesus was made God at least 55 years before his (Jesus)
own death. In other words by 65 A.D. Jesus was made God / Son of God while he
(Jesus) died 55 years later in 120 A.D.
(Explanation of point No.
6) Mirza Saheb says "he (Paul) is the same man who persecuted Hazrat Masih
(Jesus) till he was in this country, and after Jesus migrated to Kashmir
escaping from crucifixion, he (Paul) mixed with the Apostles and narrated a
false dream in which he claimed to have seen Jesus. He (Paul) introduced the
faith of Trinity." (Kashti-e-Nuh, page 87)
Mirza Saheb says “First of
all he sowed the bad plant of Trinity in Damascus (Chashma-e-Masihi, page 377).
Now Saira Nargis must accept that while he (Jesus) was alive in Kashmir, he was
being worshipped as God in Palestine.”
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A MESSAGE
FOR SAIRA NARGIS
No famous Supreme Court of
England, America or Germany will accept your viewpoint based on blind faith.
No Church will accept your
viewpoint of blind faith.
No neutral scholar will accept your blind
faith. Please leave Ahmadi religion and accept Islam.
Saira Nargis has totally
failed to remove contradictions in the books of Mirza Saheb. She takes the
support of a fairy tale: Israelite Christians & Gentiles.
BUT MIRZA SAHAB REJECTS
THE VIEW POINT OF SAIRA NARGIS because he says in “Anjam-e-Atham” that Christian
were on right path till the life of Jesus, and further more he says if Jesus is
alive in the skies till now, even then the Christians are still on the right
path till now (2001 A.D.).
Mirza
Saheb during his whole life did not differentiate between Israeli Christians and
Gentile Christians.
He accepts
all of them as Christians.
Mirza Saheb again and again in his book mentions Abdulla Atham as a Christian
although he was neither Israelite nor a Gentile but a Muslim who became a
Christian.
The same position is about
Sirajuddin. Mirza Ghulam Ahmed wrote a booklet named "Four Questions of
Sirajuddin Christian ". This man Sirajuddin called Christian by Mirza Sahab was
also not a Israelite or a Gentile BUT he was converted from Islam to
Christianity.
According to Saira Nargis,
Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Sahab will have to correct his mistake from the grave.
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